55. Hugging the Bar with Infinite Ingredient Founder Katie Muggli
A chat with the founder of an organization that will provide much-needed mental health resources in craft beer; plus tarot for self-confidence.
Hugging the Bar with Infinite Ingredient Founder Katie Muggli
I’m happy to deliver into your inboxes a long overdue third episode of the Hugging the Bar podcast, and this one is a conversation I’d been wanting to have for a while. I know you’re going to be excited about and feel inspired by this chat with Katie Muggli, who founded an organization called Infinite Ingredient. Infinite Ingredient is still in its mobilizing stage, and I hope if you haven’t yet learned too much about it before, maybe reading and hearing about it now will motivate you to help any way you can (Katie talks about some options!). Infinite Ingredient stands to be the kind of resource that makes a monumental impact on the craft beverage industry, providing mental health resources and support to anyone in need. In an industry where health insurance is hard to come by, HR barely exists, and struggles unfortunately abound—oh, and, alcohol is the thing at the center—I don’t think it can be overstated how game-changing Infinite Ingredient’s work will be. And on that note, how admirable Katie’s mission helming this organization is.
There’s a transcript below, cut a bit to fit into your inboxes, and you can listen to the full chat here:
(A note that the plan originally was to give Patreon patrons a week of early access to podcasts, but I’m instead building out other content that will be exclusive to patrons—these conversations should be instantly accessible.)
Okay. We're here with Katie Muggli, Founder and Executive Director of Infinite Ingredient. Thank you so much for joining Hugging the Bar, Katie.
Thank you. Thank you for having me. I'm very, very grateful for the time and happy that we were able to connect.
Yeah, I'm so grateful that you're here. I can't wait to—everything I know about Infinite Ingredient, obviously, I'm really excited about, which is why I was so interested in talking to you. But I feel like I've still got a lot to learn. And I'm excited for you to walk everybody through everything.
Absolutely.
So I will start there, just for anyone who isn't even maybe familiar yet. Can you tell us what Infinite Ingredient is and the mission there?
Absolutely. So we're a 501(c)(3) nonprofit, and our mission is to actively support the mental and physical well-being of individuals working in the craft beverage industry through outreach, education, and access to resources. And our vision is to create a healthier and more sustainable future in which individuals who work in the craft beverage industry may be supported fully and wholly as human beings, providing the opportunity for individuals to flourish and for the community to thrive.
That's incredible and extremely important work. I want to talk to you about how the initiative came about, but I'm going to break that down into different questions to really get the whole story. So I want to start with you, what your background is and experience within the industry that sort of led up to the original idea.
Absolutely. So the short, short version is that I started in the service industry. So all through college and grad school I was serving and bartending, and I can remember when local beer really started to become an option and really started to kind of burst onto the scene in the Minneapolis area. And as I started learning more about craft beer, I started looking at applying at different local breweries. I was like, "This is something that I really want to get involved in and learn more about." And eventually, I was hired by a local Minneapolis brewery in 2016, and I helped open the taproom there. And then that kind of naturally led into doing sales. So I was an on-premise sales manager there for about four years. And I helped with building the sales program from the ground up, helped with their self-distribution network, and building the infrastructure there. I advised on marketing and was also a part of the leadership team there, so that was about five years.
And then in the spring of 2021, I left that brewery that I had been working at after it was made clear to me that it was no longer a safe environment for me. And I took a job with a marketing firm and just kind of did my separation from craft for a minute to just kind of clear my head and see what I wanted to do and see whether or not it was something that I wanted to remain involved with in any way.
So where did the idea for Infinite Ingredient come from? And I guess based on what you're saying, I'm also curious if Infinite Ingredient is sort of the way that you would like to stay engaged in the craft industry.
Absolutely. So the idea came from—so I had left, let's see, it was March of 2021, and about six weeks later is when Brienne? Allen asked the question, "What sexist comments have you experienced?" And reading through those accounts and being—it was weird because I was removed from the industry, right, by six weeks. And so reading through anything that was submitted during that time and anything that was shared on her account, it broke me. I knew the truth behind all of them. I knew that what was being shared there—I knew it and I recognized it because so much of my own experience was reflected in so many of those different accounts. And knowing and having those experiences just kind of set out in front of me, I was just like, "This isn't something that I can just walk away from." Because I also know from being part of the industry how little resources do exist and how tough it is—having health insurance is a damn miracle—and that there's not really any place for folks to go.
And just from my own experience, trying to pay for therapy is expensive. These things are really—they're absolute luxuries at a certain point because it is so expensive to try and take care of yourself and to try and heal whatever it is, whether it's something in your own life or whether it's something that you experienced at your workplace. Whatever it is, it's not cheap to try and support and take care of yourself.
So knowing that, I was just like, "There has to be some way that we can create resources. There has to be some way that we can get this into everyone's hands." And that's where the idea for Infinite Ingredient came from. From 2020 to 2022, I was part of the board of directors for the Minnesota Craft Brewers Guild. And during that time, we made the same resources that are going to be available through Infinite Ingredient. We had them available for breweries to individually opt in, and only a handful of the brewery members signed up for it at the time. And it just kind of became clear to me that one of the potential barriers to folks being able to access resources is whether or not an owner finds value in it and wants to invest in it.
To me, the disparaging difference between that and then these accounts that were being shared—I was just like, "There has to be somewhere in the middle where we can just provide these things and get rid of that barrier of an owner, a leadership team deciding whether or not this is something worthwhile to invest in," because, to me, your people are always worthwhile to invest in. But also being able to make sure that this is as equitable as possible in its delivery and that it's not dependent on guild membership or association membership, it's something that exists wholly and entirely outside of any of those entities.
Yeah, it makes me think of two things, which is, one, that there are so many industries—craft beer is not unique in what it's going through, right, in having a reckoning, in realizing these problems and some people trying to make change happen, some people resisting that. But it is one of the industries that is really low paying, and insurance is definitely not something that everyone has the luxury of getting. And most breweries don't have HR. And then the second thing to that is: HR also, even in industries where it's more prevalent, doesn't always have a great—I mean, a lot of times, unfortunately, HR is more there to protect ownership instead of the employees. So, I mean, it's an incredible resource. Infinite Ingredient is so great in terms of, like, its equitable access. So I want to ask you now, especially now you're working full time, and it sounds like you have a lot going on, and I know this is no small feat. So how has it been? What's the last year been like, actually bringing infinite ingredient into full fruition?
It has been absolutely exhausting. It also has simultaneously been very invigorating and just inspiring. Every conversation that I have with a person has really kind of unlocked a new drive to get it done. And so any time I have felt like this is too much or what in the fresh hell do I really think I'm doing, it's been really great and really wonderful to be able to have something that really, at the end of the day is so positive, and being able to cultivate and kind of create something that—I can put the energy that I have with my experience in the industry towards something that is cultivating and building as opposed to just trying to forget it or trying to walk away or just say I'm going to call it done.
Really, just being able to have that focus on something positive has been really great and I know that it's not forever that it's going to be this after-hours thing. Trying to get through in the meantime, it's impacted [my] sleep for sure, but it really has also kind of forced a really great and really important kind of conversation within myself of just like, “what is it that you want to be doing and what is it that you want to be involved in?” And being able to be involved in the industry in this kind of industry-adjacent way, I think, is just for me personally the best and healthiest way in which I can continue to be involved, and still get to celebrate the amazing humans that I know within it, but also not have to put myself at undue risk of going through the same things that I already have.
I love what you're saying about putting that energy and experience toward cultivating something. I mean, different people have different capacities for different things and handle things differently, but this will help so many people going forward, which is so incredible. By the way, do you have an official team or is it just you right now and other people are sort of pitching in, or how is that working?
So right now, so it's myself, and then I have my founding board members. It's a group of three of the most incredible and amazing women. I have Ann Reilly from the New York City Brewers Guild—
Oh, we love Anne.
Yeah. Yes. I think Ann is how we got introduced, is that correct?
Possibly, or through socials and stuff like that just because I'm in New York, so…
Yeah, so she and I have known each other for a few years. And then Elle Rhodes from Du Nord Social Spirits and Kirstin Westby from Milk & Honey Ciders.
Amazing.
They're all just collectively incredible and inspiring humans. I'm going to start crying because they're so amazing and I'm so grateful to have them because they were part of that kind of initial, like, "Hey, I have this idea. Will you hop on board with this? Will you support this? And will you help me build this?" And the answer from each one of them was an unquestioning like, "Yes, tell me what to do. Put me in, coach." So it's been really wonderful having them.
And obviously, as we grow and as we really kind of start to take shape, since this is still such a brand spanking new organization, obviously the board will grow, and hopefully at some point we will be able to have a team in existence, someone with social media skills, hopefully, because that is super not my thing. I'm like a little dinosaur when it comes to these things. So hopefully sooner rather than later on the social end…So for now, the team is myself and our board of directors. And so it largely has been that. And then hopefully as we grow, we'll be able to—I've had so many folks reach out and be like, "How can I get involved and what can I do?" I can't wait until the day where I can email them back and be like, "Hey, here's what we can do," or being able to have kind of clear directives for being able to volunteer and being able to be part of things.
Amazing. Okay, so you talked a little bit—I wanted to talk to you about why something like Infinite Ingredient is so needed desperately in this industry. And I do think that you spoke really well to that in explaining how the idea came about. In broad strokes, just looking at this from a bird's eye view, I guess I could say, what impact do you think Infinite Ingredient stands to make? What do you think a craft beverage industry looks like with something like Infinite Ingredient in place?
For me, the way that I imagine it is somewhere where people are able to have an outlet outside of the product that they are selling, creating, engaging with. Myself included, it's really easy to lean into your therapist being your glass of pilsner or 14 glasses of pilsner or whatever it is. And I think at the end of all of this, the industry needs healthy outlets. And so I think once this gets implemented, once folks have access to this, I'm hoping that people can create healthier relationships with alcohol. I'm hoping that they can create healthier relationships with their coworkers and really, really kind of see a change where these accounts and these things that are so endemic in the industry that have come to light over this last year that a lot of us knew, right…this wasn't news to me…this wasn't news to a lot of us in the industry…and so being able to long-term and down the road really get to the roots of some of these issues…
Healthy people don't verbally abuse others at work. Healthy people don't sexually harass others. Healthy people don't do any of these horrific things that we have read about and have understood to be true. And so I think the long-term picture of how this can impact is just being able to have a healthy work environment and being able to, within that, be able to a have a life because right now, it's kind of—the way that the industry is set up is either you're in and you're all in and you don't really get to have a life outside of it, so hopefully we could kind of help change that.
Yeah, for sure. So what are some specific endeavors, some specific facets of how Infinite Ingredient will work? What are some particular sort of parts of the initiative, of how people will interact with it when it's fully working up and running?
So the number one thing is the resources and access to resources. So once it's up and running, folks will be able to call a number or log on to a website and be able to be connected to 24/7, 365 access to Master's level counselors. They'll be able to access up to five counseling sessions with a Master's level counselor per issue. And so what that looks like is if you're struggling at work and that's starting to affect your home life, that would be considered five issues of whatever it is that's going on at work.
And then five issues would be how it's affecting your home life—or five sessions, excuse me. And so there's no annual limit to the number of sessions that someone can utilize. And so that's something that will be a huge kind of piece of things, is these actual tangible resources. So there'll also be work-life resources. There'll be legal and financial resources, medical advocacy, and also coaching as well. So the number one thing and the biggest thing right now that we're focused on is being able to have these channels open to these resources for anyone working for a craft brewery in the United States. So the gist of it is if you work for a brewery that makes less than six million barrels a year, you will be able to use these resources and that's it. You don't have to pay into it. Your brewery doesn't need to individually opt in. Once we are funded for that first year, we'll be able to turn on that first year of resources.
It's incredible. I don't know if this is a painful question because you're in the weeds with this daily, but I'm curious what some of the biggest challenges are building this.
One of the biggest challenges is funding. I mean, just straight up, the monetary ability to be able to turn the resources on and then also just to be able to effectively fundraise, right? Everything is volunteer basis right now or just kind of like off-time things. And so the biggest challenge right now is just getting funding and spreading awareness about what it is that we're trying to do and how it is that we're going about it. So after CBC, it's been really great. That was in Minneapolis this year, which was really amazing having that in my hometown. And being able to kind of have some of those conversations has been really invigorating in really helping with awareness of like, "Oh wait, you're doing what?" And so that has been super helpful. But then the absolute bottom line, number one challenge right now is just the funding aspect.
Yeah. So I do want to get to how people can help there, but just so far: You've talked about this a little bit just in terms of kind of the good and the bad, right? Some breweries maybe at first being hesitant to sign on, then you're having this conversation and telling people in the industry about this idea and they're excited about it. How would you really say that the community response—the craft beer, the craft beverage community response—has been so far since you started working on this?
The response has been really incredible. It's given me a lot of hope to that—obviously, we know it's needed, right? But the response has been just super supportive and really excited to see this come to light and to see this in existence, I think. And so, yeah, for the most part, I don't think I've gotten a single bad response to it. I did get a bad response—or not a bad response, but just someone who wasn't overly enthused about…I gave a presentation at CBC about burnout and the way that I worded something was very upsetting to a brewery owner. But aside from that, I think that's the only negative response I've gotten to any of this so far. But it's also kind of one of those things too, where it's just, if your response is like, "Fuck you, I don't want mental health resources," it's just like, "Oh, that's a you thing."
That's a total you thing. Yeah. I mean, yeah, I can't imagine for the most part—this is just a good thing. This is puppies to me. This is a good thing. You cannot not be excited about this. When we are at the end of our conversation, we'll talk a little bit about where people can find Infinite Ingredient, follow Infinite Ingredient, but how can people—When they do find you, how can individual people sort of pitch in and help here?
For sure. Well, like I said, the biggest burden right now is the financial aspect of things. And I know it sounds super corny, “every dollar counts,” but it's really so, so, so true. So even just $5 makes a huge difference. $6 is the number at which an individual's year is covered. So for one, access to services for one year cost $6 for one individual. So the way that I think about it is, buy someone a beer. For $6, you can provide access to all of those resources for an individual in the industry and their family. That's the other thing, is that this access isn't just for that person in the industry. This extends to their children, their spouse, significant other. This is something that's larger than just these individuals.
The donating part is huge, right, but not everyone is in that position. And so if you can't donate, just helping to spread the word of what we're doing. Talk about it. Talk about these issues. Talk about mental health. Make it okay for people to have these conversations. And opening up those pathways and being able to share the idea of what it is that we're doing and being able to normalize these conversations, as opposed to “everything's fine.” I am the little dog in the room with the flames going everywhere. “This is fine.” That's always been me. I'm always fine, even when shit is burning around me. And it's just like—I still personally am learning how to say, "Actually, I'm not," or "Actually, I need this," or whatever it is. So really just being able to help on that level is really incredible, and is so needed along with resources. We need to start creating conversations and changing conversations and how they happen.
Right. Something I talk about in the newsletter is something that I think is super, super relevant here, which is that when you are speaking to other people who are working in the industry, they get it, right? Either they've had hard experiences themselves or they know someone who has. You're never that far removed from the situation, and then so then they also get the impact of organizations like this. However, it can be really difficult to engage craft beer consumers and help make them understand it's not just about beer. That the people who are making the beer and selling the beer and pouring your beer, etc., they're more important than the beer. In terms of Infinite Ingredient specifically, what would you say to someone who's not working in the industry, but they're engaged in the community as a consumer? Why is this important? Why should they care?
Right. Thank you, and that's something that I really appreciate about what it is that you are doing…because a lot of this stuff is so insular, right? It just kind of happens in our little bubbles. And so to that end, I would say that no matter how sexy craft beer looks, it still is work, and it still is a job, and it still is hard. It has this kind of bright, shiny, like, "Oh my God, that must just be so fun." And it's like, "Sure, but it also is a job, right?" It also is work, and especially I think after these last few years with the pandemic, just we've kind of seen this great equalizer of, it doesn't matter where you are or what it is that you're engaged in, all of us have had a shit run for the last couple of years, and so being able to—even industry aside, this is a resource that folks see in every industry, but our focus is craft beverage, and right now craft beer.
Yeah, definitely. It's so relatable when you put it that way. People just need to see that. I will end by asking you in a sort of tangible way, how do you see the coming months, maybe next year or two playing out for Infinite Ingredient and what are your biggest hopes for what comes of that time?
[My] hope is that by the end of the year—and I know that's lofty—but my hope is that by the end of the year we can say that we're funded, and that by the time 2023 starts I really want to be able to unlock the access to resources. So I think that is the ultimate goal and the number one goal. And once we get to that, we will be able to start kind of measuring and looking at the utilization of it, and be able to have that direct case for the impact of it. Because right now, we know that it would have an impact, but once we're able to kind of make that case and say, "Here, people are engaging with this and people are utilizing this," I think that at that point we will then be able to get to a point where we can really just focus on, and lean into, making sure that once these resources turn on, that they never go away. That's been one of my biggest fears, that we'll get funded for the first year and then we won't have the funding to do the second year. I don't think that will be the case. I think that this will hopefully turn into something that can sustain and really be in existence for the long haul. But we just we need to get to that initial piece, and initial spot. So the number one goal is just being able to say…I wish that we could close with like, "Here's how to sign up and here's how to access." So eventually, hopefully by the next time we talk, that will be in existence. But that really is the number one goal, is getting these tangible resources into people's hands as quickly as humanly possible.
Yeah, I mean, but that's why we're here and talking, right? We want to keep spreading awareness. Like you're saying, anyone can help with that. If you can donate, I mean…I'm very grateful to you, and I admire you. I mean, this is just such—it's the most important work and I know it's going to take off and do big things, and once you're in motion with this, there's no way that people aren't going to see the incredible value of it. So this is amazing. I'm so excited we got to talk about it, and I just want to end with, if you could just let people know where best to find Infinite Ingredient.
Absolutely. Thank you. Also, by the way, this has been really wonderful. I really appreciate the time, and thank you for sharing me with the incredible people that you're communicating with on the regular. So I really appreciate that. You can find Infinite Ingredient at infiniteingredient.org. You can also find us on social media, so we have our Facebook page, on Instagram we are @infinite.ingredient, and on Twitter we are @i_ingredient.
You can also find all links to all of those things on our website, infinitegredient.org. And then on there as well, there's the link to our donor box for the launch campaign, so.
Thank you so much, again. This is so great, and cheers to you and Infinite Ingredient.
Beer Tarot!
This week, I pulled the Six of Wands.
Wands as a suit speaks to intuition, communication, and travel; the Six of Wands is about making concrete progress, self-confidence, and success—specifically being recognized for it. Awards, certifications, degrees, good press, employee-of-the-month-type stuff.
Just a couple of weeks ago, we got Four of Wands, which is about celebrating an achievement, really letting yourself revel in pride. Think of the Six of Wands as a more long-term continuation of that message: internalize that pride about that accomplishment into lasting self-confidence. You did it, you can do it, you can do things. You slayed a dragon, and obviously, it’s nowhere near the last dragon that will cross your path. So, yes, take time to celebrate, but then when you continue on with your work or your push for something, really feel bolstered by your past achievements—you are strong, you are talented, you are smart, you are determined. And, yeah, getting public recognition for this stuff is fantastic, let’s be honest—especially if it’s a promotion that comes with a raise or some such situation—but really the best reward you can get here is less self-doubt going forward.
Deep Ellum Brewing Company has a beer called Manic Confidence, a “hazy enough” IPA. While we’re obviously not throwing our arms around the “manic” part in regard to this tarot message, I do dig the overall confident vibe and think Deep Ellum’s explanation works perfectly here. “Some will say that we’re late to the hazy trend, but we think we’re right on time.” Don’t let anyone shake you because you’re not doing your thing on their timeline or in their way.
This Week’s Boozy Media Rec
I honestly didn’t think I needed to learn anything further about Omnipollo—no shade, just figured, ya know, I got the gist. But I got totally sucked into this vibrant and transportive profile, “Lead Us Not Into Temptation — Omnipollo Brewing in Stockholm, Sweden,” by Jonny Garrett for Good Beer Hunting. It’s an interesting look that makes you think maybe there’s a reason to take things like pastry stouts more seriously, contrasted with the fact that Omnipollo founder Henok Fentie doesn’t take himself too seriously, which is perhaps why this brewing operation works.
Ex-BEER-ience of the Week
Hop Butcher is one of the few breweries that still gets me excited about big, hop-exploding IPAs. I had been pining for Beef Dipped since spying this Simcoe stunner on their Instagram a bit ago, and finally nabbed a can on a beautiful Sunday afternoon at BierWax.
Until next week, here is Darby not with beer but with the stroller we just got her because short-snouted doggos have a real hard time in the summer—and now she can leisurely stroll from brewery to brewery (and other places, too, sometimes).
